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Post by Kaito on Feb 17, 2011 0:17:05 GMT -5
A combination of Shimada and Katsuo seem to be the most plausible thing from a member perspective. I like the idea of rotating the set number of icons. I also appreciate the points that Neji brought up, and despite the desire to stay within my very own lines, thought that his post was only full of valid opinions for the thread.
My addition to the discussion is that I think that when deciding on these icons, the leaders of the respective village should be consulted. I don't feel like sugar coating it in words, as I think that the reasons for doing so are easily deducible.
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Post by Professor Badass!! on Feb 17, 2011 0:22:03 GMT -5
Neji, here's your verbal. Step out of line again and you will be removed.
He explained why he thought the first method didn't work, applied appropriate metaphor to give a mental image of a system's ill-efficiency, and then proceeded to explain in a coherent-concise manner.
Seems in-line to me.
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Post by Tou-kun on Feb 17, 2011 0:23:15 GMT -5
Shimada said it well. The point is not to have a rotating roster because that makes very little sense based on what we're attempting to achieve. With a rotating roster, you would have to replace the people as they become inactive. Imagine the following:
"Abraham Lincoln was the sixteenth president." then in two days Abe goes inactive. "Thomas Jefferson was the sixteenth president."
We're have to alter the site's continuity every time some goes inactive which goes completely against the whole idea we're going for.
We want the icons to be characters who are solidified into the site's continuity. Those characters will be written into future chronologies and threads detailing specific events, and if they are to be so important, it would warrant them being powerful. Maybe that message was lost in translation, but that is what we intend.
As for Neji's warning, it's not what he said. I understand his points were valid. It's the fact that he had an attitude. Now carry on, kiddos.
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Sandy
[文民] Civilian
member is happy!
Posts: 989
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Post by Sandy on Feb 17, 2011 0:34:58 GMT -5
I feel like the importance of these characters isn't getting across properly. They'll be like Jiraiya; everyone in Konoha knows who Jiraiya is, and most outside know who he is too. An icon isn't just strong and smart, they're a mentor, someone young ninja model themselves after. They'll be mentioned by other characters even if they've never ICly met, such is their fame.
This is different than the current custom canon system. That rewards in-character achievements. This assumes the character has already been around for decades and is a living legend.
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Post by Katsuo on Feb 17, 2011 0:53:25 GMT -5
Well, given those examples, I can see how a rotating roster might not work as efficiently. However, perhaps a middle ground can be reached?
You maintain the rotating roster, but instead of replacing an established icon character, and having to deal with the retcon possibilities or history removals (which aren't fun or wanted), you instead have that character disappear into obscurity... and replace the position with a new, active character.
So, instead of being "That character was known for this, but went inactive, so all that stuff is void.", you instead change it to "Oh. That guy? I remember him... didn't he do that and that? He disappeared, probably wandering aimlessly. But, hey, what about that new ninja, who's new and active?"
The result of this roster, would be that should someone come back and try to reclaim their icon status, they would have to understand that (due to time absent, or whatever IC reason for their RL inactivity) their character just doesn't have the same status as before... it's like they went missing, didn't do anything, and came back out of the blue - and people were just 'Oh, hey, I remember you... but that's about it.'
So, I propose to make the roster rotatable, but having the reward be a constant state of icon status for activity and continued presence on said roster - with those who disappear just fading from memory as a prominent figure in the village.
From an OOC standpoint, inactives can no longer claim to be of any importance beyond what they did or were known for, instead becoming like the history they helped make - and this could translate with them applying for Fame or Recognition, and losing their icon status.
Just my suggestion.
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Post by odawara mamoru on Feb 17, 2011 1:09:02 GMT -5
Orochimaru: -Survived against Hanzo; named one of three Sannin -Joined Akatsuki -Busted up a village with two other villages; failed to destroy it. -Killed Hiruzen past his prime with the aid of two previous Hokage. -Killed the Kazekage along with help from Kimmimaro, Kabuto, etc. -Learned a bunch of forbidden jutsu. -Experimenting on noobs.
Reisha: -Beat the snot out of Nidaime Hokage. -Created Valley of the End during/after battle with Hokage. -Beat up a Lord. -Conquers a clan in some raid and takes a super artifact thinger. -Single handedly stopped an entire country from fighting for a bit after a fight or something. -Invaded enemy territory. -Managed to stay alive in said territory for two-ish years. -Used force and somehow bullied an entire village/country to join a war. -Also made that village leader look silly.
I'll stop there.
...it's the same thing.
If Julia is recognized as creating puppets in Suna--
And Jack is an icon because he defended his homeland from invading forces and he's from Amegakure--
Aren't those two the same thing? Yes, yes they are. The only difference between them is you're calling one an icon and the other recognition/whatever.
Icon: An image; a representation.
Both play the exact same role. It's no different. How my or anyone elses character sees another character would not change if you used the name recognition, fame or icon.
We've seen what reoccurring character's caused back on V1. Continuity? More like a debacle of any story or continuity for said characters and those involved. "Don't like what that person did with that student?" Retconned. "Don't like that relationship?" Retconned. I remember Gen'ei literally retconning all of the previous Sasuke's stuff. I remember Tsunade changing hands... no--I lost count after about five. Literally the only thing that reoccurring characters brought Konaha before was the fact that said canons changed hands faster then you could say "Canon strip."
...there is nothing left of the character that's actually of your own creation. I'm certain that's what she was getting at. Sure, you're posting, but you still need to abide by that set character and how they act, etc. Literally everything is someone else's work; their ideas, their plans, their idea of an icon.
I frankly don't care what happens either, but you might as well just get rid of the Recognition and Accomplishment stuff if this gets implemented. There's no use listing all the stuff your personal characters are recognized for if they're just going to be considered small potatoes by the icons of each country.
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Post by Ken. on Feb 17, 2011 1:10:23 GMT -5
::rubs eyes::
Alright, I'm keeping my opinion short on this. I personally feel like the advantages of having a Icon System works to present the whole with those characters in each prospective village that are less personal characters made by the member, but made for the entirety of the site to create a dynamic RP experience is a great idea. While this is susceptible to flaws, people will go in knowing that if they fall out of sync with the site and go inactive that they're ability to RP as said character is out the window. This method seems a bit more beneficial than creating a rotational list that I mind you is nice, but for this case I don't feel appropriate.
I said I'd keep it short but I feel the need to explain why I feel it's inappropriate for this Icon thing. Main reason why I feel this way is because as Katsuo said above:
You maintain the rotating roster, but instead of replacing an established icon character, and having to deal with the retcon possibilities or history removals (which aren't fun or wanted), you instead have that character disappear into obscurity... and replace the position with a new, active character. So, instead of being "That character was known for this, but went inactive, so all that stuff is void.", you instead change it to "Oh. That guy? I remember him... didn't he do that and that? He disappeared, probably wandering aimlessly. But, hey, what about that new ninja, who's new and active?" The result of this roster, would be that should someone come back and try to reclaim their icon status, they would have to understand that (due to time absent, or whatever IC reason for their RL inactivity) their character just doesn't have the same status as before... it's like they went missing, didn't do anything, and came back out of the blue - and people were just 'Oh, hey, I remember you... but that's about it.' So, I propose to make the roster rotatable, but having the reward be a constant state of icon status for activity and continued presence on said roster - with those who disappear just fading from memory as a prominent figure in the village. From an OOC standpoint, inactives can no longer claim to be of any importance beyond what they did or were known for, instead becoming like the history they helped make - and this could translate with them applying for Fame or Recognition, and losing their icon status. Just my suggestion.
Even though people can just go inactive we (the staff in this case really) just think ICly that "Joe Greatman" vanished off to do something while "Jennifer Kickbutt" pops in and she's an American Idol site Icon. Although it prevents the chance and by chance I feel small, that any RP pertaining to that character would go stagnant. I've read in the rotations defense that it would prevent that lack of RP desire that filling someone else's characters shoes would create, but Katsuo from what I see isn't roughing up toddler's because Hachu made Sonzai a tough follow-up. I think that if a person can't fill such a dynamic and amazing character then obviously the person applying to take that position that is no longer filled isn't qualified and I'm willing to put even this on myself if it occurred.
One last problem I have with the rotational thing is that inactive Icon's vanishing point and them losing standing. If Jiraiya who left frequently not to mention was gone most of the time only came back to consult with the acting Hokage and sell a book would this mean that he lost standing in the village? No I honestly don't think so. If someone is a Icon they stand the tests of time no matter who becomes great tomorrow.
Well that's my 2 cents, quarter, and 50 pesos.
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Post by Ataisuru Sonzai on Feb 17, 2011 4:22:46 GMT -5
One last problem I have with the rotational thing is that inactive Icon's vanishing point and them losing standing. If Jiraiya who left frequently not to mention was gone most of the time only came back to consult with the acting Hokage and sell a book would this mean that he lost standing in the village? No I honestly don't think so. If someone is a Icon they stand the tests of time no matter who becomes great tomorrow. The idea was meant in a 'disappearing in OOC' form, not IC. With that example of Jiraiya, who was a Sannin able to move about freely at his will (effectively), so long as he was remaining active IC and posting around the various forums, he'd be considered active and not on the rotation replacement list. But, were he to disappear OOC for six months, then return and want to be considered an icon again, he'd likely be denied as there were no positions remaining to fill - or, if there was an opening, he'd just have to reapply. So, in either case, people would still know who Jiraiya (in the example) was, and he could claim fame/recognition for his past (as an active icon character), but he wouldn't be an 'active' icon character because he was absent from six months OOC-worth of events. He'd still be a Sannin, he'd still be a traveler, he'd still have all his past deeds to his name, but from an IC point of view, there were other shinobi who appeared and made a name for themselves while he was mysteriously absent from the known world. Think of it like actors. There is a constant cycle of actors in Hollywood, and despite the 'it' actor at any given time, there is always the established actor who isn't having a good month and isn't represented as much through publicity - like Hugh Jackman getting heaps of movie time, when Tom Cruise (our Jiraiya) is sitting back and chilling, not actively making movies right now. We still know who Tom Cruise is, and what he did/done, but he's just not in as much public representation as Hugh (the new character on the list) - who's in several current movies (or, in IC terms, several active plots/threads - with Tom (Jiraiya) being away due to RL reasons). Both are actors, both have movies under their belt, but one is just more prominent than the other due to higher activity and presence. I hope that offers a good example.
But, at the end of the day, I support having AU-canons that are members, and will enjoy whatever method is devised for their use. I think it offers members something, a status, to strive for and act as a reward for their efforts.
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Post by Shoko Nimori on Feb 17, 2011 7:31:26 GMT -5
Is this mandatory? If I make or have a character who would be an Icon, do they automatically become a custom canon? I don't want to be forced into the custom canon thing, and have some random person get my character if I go inactive. Hence why I've not made a village leader. I like the idea, but not the restrictions that would go with it.
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Post by Kumani Musho on Feb 17, 2011 7:45:53 GMT -5
With power comes a price.
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Post by Shoko Nimori on Feb 17, 2011 7:49:45 GMT -5
To me it's more like a punishment for my creativity. Someone else RPing Kagyaku? Really?
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Post by Kumani Musho on Feb 17, 2011 8:20:53 GMT -5
Having nine Tsuchikage is what did this.
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Post by Tou-kun on Feb 17, 2011 9:19:29 GMT -5
No, you have to go through this process to become an icon. Please read the thread before you ask questions.
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Post by Professor Badass!! on Feb 17, 2011 9:27:36 GMT -5
The icon system is no different than if the staff members created a character with the purpose of being strong enough or famous enough to support a site wide storyline. Instead of the staff getting to create that character, you-the members can.
It’s not mandatory. But it is an avenue to make playing a major role on the site more accessible, rather than having to create all your character’s fame and level of power in real-time, the staff gives you liberties to create or add your character to the major cast of characters the site will call their own. Of course with that said, inactivity warrants a stripping of the character, but it is only for those involved with that specific process.
You can be an icon without being an ICON. One is just something the staff are willing to support while the other is purely of your own merits and ambitions. One is not particularly valued over the other aside from an Icon starts off with the privilege of having a ‘head start’. This doesn’t impede on anyone’s role-play or storylines unless you’re purposely going out of your way to involve yourself or effect the site “major” arc or dealing with the “ICONS” specifically.
The closest I can see it is to the makings of the Elite Group system we had for each village on v1, when players could make or apply existing characters to a template and be granted elite stats and the fame associated from being part of a said group. The principle is the same only that those involved with Icons make it largely a process with more critique and scrutiny-to hold on to some continuity with the board.
Thus why I like rotating ICONs from the stand of allowing more available spots when someone goes inactive, the practical issue bedded with the responsibility/reward as anyone who is made an ICON but goes inactive, unless the staff acted otherwise, would still have their power buff. And that would artificially increase the amount of super powers we have on the site despite the assumed objective to keep them a tight minority.
I’d correct the things inaccurate with Reisha but the context in the summary of your events leads me to believe you didn’t as much read as just skimmed for whatever you could to devolve into absurdity and largely-it’s aside the point. But if the staff is more involved with the ICON process, then moderator to how much influence a single character can have is something that presents itself to be worked within limitations. I was shooting for the stars because that's the kind of larger than life role I wanted to play.
A standard of humility wouldn't hurt to be imposed but at the same time ICON status does allow the staff to meet the ambitious(and decent) role-players half-way, while still adding something unique to the site.
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Post by Tou-kun on Feb 17, 2011 9:31:05 GMT -5
Another thing with this rotating list stuff. Who said that we'd be allowing people to make more icons indefinitely? That'd be kind of lame, and inflating the pool of such people makes very little sense. I'm more of the thought process that once we conclude the site's history, both in terms of chronologies and threads, that icons will no longer be allowed to be registered.
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Post by Professor Badass!! on Feb 17, 2011 9:36:34 GMT -5
I don't think anyone said whether you'd keep them open for registry or not. The rotating system just allows someone else to assume that role without having to directly jump in another person's character's shoes, which people may feel discouraged from doing so. Whether they find the character unappealing, don't want to disrespect the original RPer, or don't feel in assuming all the weight and responsibilities of the said character, a system that rotates, IE: lets a new face appear in the mix doesn't have to deal with that.
It's an attractive notion, one that I personally like better but can't outright support because of some impracticalness that conflict with the idea of keeping figure heads to a minimum.
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Post by Ataisuru Sonzai on Feb 17, 2011 11:04:15 GMT -5
If the staff intend to make the AU-canon list for villages set, and only X number of characters are allowed to be them, then the suggestion can remain simply that - a suggestion - and I will still support the idea as a whole, regardless of the method chosen.
I like members having the goal of becoming icons. It just adds that bit of extra zing to the mix that I, personally, find appealing.
I await the decision.
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Post by Kaito on Feb 17, 2011 11:15:08 GMT -5
So would village leaders play any role in the decisions of these icons? Perhaps BEFORE going to Tou the applicant would have to pass it by their respective Kage first?
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Post by Tou-kun on Feb 17, 2011 11:19:25 GMT -5
Agreed.
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Sandy
[文民] Civilian
member is happy!
Posts: 989
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Post by Sandy on Feb 17, 2011 13:32:42 GMT -5
I also agree. Kage should have a say.
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